THE

CONTROVERSY

BETWEEN

JOANNA SOUTHCOTT

AND

ELIAS CARPENTER,

ONE OF HER JUDGES,

MADE PUBLIC.

PART ONE - BOOK 38

I AM sorry to acquaint the public that the conduct of Mr. Carpenter, of Neckinger House, Bermondsey, has obliged me to make known to the world the truth between him and me.

It may appear marvellous to the public how Mr. Carpenter, being chosen as one of the Twelve, should now turn an enemy to me, or I to him. To this I answer, I never was an enemy to Mr. Carpenter, but always wished to conceal his frailties from the brethren; though I always saw in him a spirit of opposition and contention against them. This I thought was owing to a warm and rash temper of his own, and that he could not bear any contradiction; but as he was called upon, like the rest, to be one of the Twelve, and appeared very zealous in the cause, I always thought it my duty to conceal his infirmities, and his warmth against his brethren; therefore I have burnt his Letters that he wrote to me against them, that his malice against them might not give place to

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the devil to kindle their anger against him. Heaven is my witness, and my friends likewise, that I have done all in my power to keep peace between him and them, as much as in me lay, which will appear hereafter in the volume of the Book: but vain and fruitless have been all my attempts; the more I tried to keep peace, the more Mr. Carpenter was kindling strife, as he has been led on by the teaching of others and not by mine; and who was united with six brethren against my friends, until at last he is broke out against me, by a different teaching from Henry Prescott, whom they call Joseph. This affair brought me into a situation to be compelled and commanded to put the whole in print, for the world to judge between him and me. This command at first wounded me to the heart, to think I, that had been all the days of my life the most tender of people’s characters, and have myself suffered wrongs and injuries in my own character, because I would not make public the ill conduct of my enemies. This I did in the cause of Mr. Wills and of Sanderson; the same also by Mr. Smith’s servants, and many others. And yet all those, whose conduct I had concealed, I have been since ordered to reveal; and now as I thought it come to Mr. Carpenter, one of the chosen, my own familiar friend, in whom I had trusted, and that it is he who is doing evil against me, and whose conduct I am now ordered to put in print; this wounded my heart, and I pondered deeply, how different was my calling from any spirit of my own; and that if this was not a Command from the Lord, for ends unknown to me, I would not write men’s characters in a history, as I have in my publications, for the world.

HERE CAME THE ANSWER OF THE SPIRIT TO ME

"Now thou sayest, different from a spirit of thy own is all my Calling to thee. Now I answer thee:

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If this had been a spirit of thy own, to make public every man’s conduct and character, the world might say, thou didst act in a spirit of thy own; therefore, I tell thee, it was my Wisdom and my Will, to incline thy heart to conceal the things that I have ordered thee to reveal, to shew mankind it is not thy spirit, but my Command, what thou hast done. And now I answer thee: As thou sayest thou wast sorry to be called to make all things public; I ask thee, whose honour dost thou most regard, the honour of God, or the honour of men? Thy answer is, the honour of God is the most regarded by thee. Then I ask thee how my honour can be cleared as a God, concerning men, if thou concealest the truth? Another question I shall ask thee; answer ME, and I will answer thee again: What good didst thou do thy master, when thou livedst with Smith, to conceal the conduct of his servants, and not let him know what they were doing? Wilt thou say thy pity was mixed with justice?"

I must answer, No; conscience condemns me, that I did not do justice to my master, to conceal the conduct of his servants.

"Then now I will answer thee again. As thou seest thy folly in the first, now give up thy own wisdom in the last; for, I tell thee, no more justice than thou didst do to thy earthly master, to conceal the conduct of his servants, no more justice canst thou do to the honour of thy heavenly Master, to conceal from the world the conduct of my Servants, who have professed to be in my service, and now turn back as thieves and robbers; because, I tell thee, as a God I cannot clear my honour to men and devils, if their conduct is concealed. How can I clear my honour amongst men concerning Carpenter, if his conduct is concealed from the world? And now mark his Letter; how he calls ME a faithless God, if I desert him; then how can I clear myself to the world in answer to his arguments,

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if thou concealest the Truth, after all that he has done in my name, professing it was for my honour and glory, and for the love of the coming of his Lord? Would not men judge my Blessings must continue to rest upon his head? Another reason I shall assign; if thou sufferest Carpenter to rob thee of Innocence, Truth, and Justice, thou must suffer him to rob ME of my honour, in choosing thee for such a Calling as this! Thy Calling no man discerns, in what manner thou art called from the beginning, to have my Spirit within thee, and my Laws written on thy heart; therefore, I tell thee, thou must clear thyself of what is laid to thy charge, if thou wilt clear my Honour; for, I now tell thee, from thy first folly in concealing the conduct of the servants (at Smith’s,) thou lost the favour of thy master, and he turned thee out of his service; and perfectly so, I now tell thee, if thou in pity to Carpenter and his Six that are joined with him, should conceal his conduct and theirs from the world, thou wouldest lose my Favour, and be compelled to quit MY SERVICE, as thou wast compelled to quit Smith’s. But this, thou sayest in thy heart, is worse than death to thee; because in my Service is thy heart fixed, to live and die, that thou mayest reign with ME in glory. Then I ask thee how my Honour can be cleared to the world concerning Carpenter, if the truths are now concealed? Hath not he the letters to produce, that I have called him as a servant and as a labourer in my vineyard? Then I ask thee how my Honour can be cleared to forsake him, if the Truth doth not appear, and that he first forsook ME, as Eli first forsook ME, before the promise was taken from him? Now I ask thee of Eli, if it was not recorded what he had done, and what his sons had done, and he restrained them not, how could my Honour appear, to forsake Eli, and take from him the promise that I had made? And the same I tell thee of Saul; if the causes did not stand on record, why

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these changes took place—that man first began to depart from ME before I departed from my promises; I must appear to mankind as a changeable Being, and an unjust God. Now perfectly so I tell thee of Carpenter; the promises I have made to him, if he obeyed my command, must appear against ME as a God, or against thy visitation that it is not of God, if the reasons are not assigned to the world, how Carpenter began to forsake ME by disobedience, before I forsook him. Here I have shewed thee on the one hand why the Truth must be cleared to the world, to prove my justice to mankind, that I do not break off from my promises before they break off by disobedience; and now I shall tell thee my reasons on the other hand; before the Truth is cleared up, to point out every reason and every conduct of him, the devil hath an opportunity to work in Carpenter’s heart, and work with them all, that thy calling is not of God, or I, as a God, must be dealing unjustly with them; because, I tell thee, from their Prayers, they judge I must hear and answer every prayer to bless them, without considering they go from their prayers; for this is the reason I ordered thee to return the letter to Carpenter, wherein he said he had prayed to be convinced if he was in an error; but when I went to convince him of his errors he refused to be convinced, grew angry, and was offended! Here I have told thee, he mocked ME with his prayers, because he refused the very thing he had prayed for; then how can Carpenter mock ME with his prayers, when he refused to have them answered? Here I have shewed thee his folly from his own words in prayer; and now I shall shew thee further: He says he prays for his enemies; and it is known to thee, many of thy friends and believers he calls his enemies; and yet, when I have answered his prayers, to say I shall bless them if they stand stedfast in their faith, and obey my commands, that are given through thee, here is another thing he hath prayed for,

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and is offended at having it answered. But let him know, Obedience is better than Sacrifice; and to obey than the fat of rams; but rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as an iniquity of idolatry.

"And now I shall come to the Parable of the Master and his Servants, and a Father and his Children. If a master has servants who study in all things to know their master’s will and obey it, and are in all things faithful to their master, does he discharge those servants because they do not agree one with the other? In thy heart thou answerest, No: few masters will do that, if the servants are faithful to their master, and in all things study to please him, he will not discharge them for their disagreement one with the other.—And now come to Carpenter’s own words."—

As far as I can recollect, they were as follows: Mr. Carpenter said he had two workmen who quarrelled; and carried their dispute so high that one of the men bound himself in an oath that he would never work with the other again; he told Mr. Carpenter of it, and wanted him to turn the other man out of his employ. Mr. Carpenter answered him, he should not turn the man away to please him, and distress the other with a wife and family. The man said, then he must leave him; for he had bound himself in an oath never to work with this man again. Mr. Carpenter answered, Then you must go; for I shall not discharge him for your rash conduct; so the man left Mr. Carpenter.—

"Now I shall answer thee from Carpenter’s own words, and out of his own mouth condemn him: If he thought it unjust to discharge one servant to please the other, and discharged the servant that refused to stay with the other, because he made a rash promise to bind his master to his will, which he would not comply with, then how shall he vainly imagine that I as the Master of all shall discharge any of my Servants for their disagreement? I tell thee, No: it is not for Carpenter’s disagreement with his brethren

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that brought any change for my refusing him as a servant; but, I tell thee, it is for his rebellion in refusing to obey my command; and like the servant that left him, because he would not discharge the other, equally unjust is Carpenter’s anger kindled against his brethren and fellow servants. Here I have shewed thee my conduct as a Master; and have proved from Carpenter’s own words, and his own justice, that he is the servant to be discharged, if he doth not break off from his unjust anger.

"And now I shall come to a Father. It is known to thee the thing is often in families, for children to fall out one with the other, and carry their quarrels very high; but does the father forbid them his presence and turn them from his house, for their quarrelling one with another? If they all behave dutiful to their parents, he does not discharge them for their falling out together; but if they become unruly to their parents, then his anger is kindled to turn them from his presence.

"Here I have shewn thee, of a Master and a Father, how they act with their children and servants: and I have already told thee, and now I tell thee again, after the manner of men I shall act with men: a father is grieved to see his children not agree, and so is my Spirit grieved to see the believers not agree; and yet, I tell thee, their disagreement one with the other never made ME discharge any to disown them as my children or servants; but it is the rebellion against ME and my commands, which makes ME turn them from ME as a master does a rebellious servant, and a father a rebellious child. Here I have shewed thee plainly what is the cause in Carpenter; that without repentance and being convinced of his errors, I no longer call him as a Servant employed in my Service.

"Now come to the Prophet Malachi i. 6—‘A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: If then I be a Father, where is mine honour? and if I be a Master, where is my fear? saith the Lord

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of Hosts unto you, O Priests, that despise my Name: and ye say, Wherein have we despised thy Name?’ Here I have shewed thee already wherein he hath despised my Name and made it contemptible amongst the believers. From the Letters he hath sent to thee he hath made ME contemptible and a faithless God, if I did not bless him, and act faithfully with Joseph, to visit him by my Spirit, when he is departed from my Spirit; and Carpenter hath also refused to answer the justice I demanded of him concerning thee. Now all these things must appear to the world to clear my honour amongst mankind, that they may judge between ME and my Vineyard: and from the Letters that have been sent to Carpenter in times past, let men judge what I could have done more for him than I have done; but when I looked for sweet grapes he hath brought forth sour grapes, and so their teeth are set on edge."

Here I have given my readers the answer of the Lord to my foolish heart; and to my backwardness of having every truth appear, which every one must discern that I must shew more love to the creature than to the Creator, and ill requite the love of my dying Lord, if I do not faithfully let every Truth appear. To begin with the Contention between Mr. Carpenter and me, I must go back to the month of May last; though he and I have often contended by letters, whenever Communications did not please him, or he could not clearly understand them; for he never would trust to the wisdom of God, any further than it appeared clear to his own understanding, as an Abraham’s faith was never in him; and this hath brought on disputes in letters between him and me; but never so far as to disagree till his illness in May last. I had then a Communication given me concerning him, with which I was ordered to go to his house and read to him. But that the reader may understand all, there was a man who called himself the Spiritual Searcher frequented Mr. Carpenter’s house, at that time, and

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I was answered it was not right for Mr. Carpenter to receive him: and now I shall give the Communication I was ordered then to read to him, dated

May 15, 1805.

"With prudent care, I warn you here,
With caution to go on,
And then, I say, you’ve nought to fear,
Be guided by my hand;
Then I will come an arm that’s strong
For to protect the whole;
You’ll find the dangers will roll on,
Once more I tell you all.
The Standard, see, I’ve plac’d in thee,
Thy heart I’ve made it MINE;
So in thy judgment now agree,
Where thou dost men resign.
Mark all before, I have told you here,
Thy heart is bolted by ME;
And of the prophet now take care;
Let Carpenter to see
The way he’s cast, in sickness burst,
To stop the progress there;
I tell you all that in the last
My words you’ll see them clear.
In thee I’m come, I tell them, strong,
Let all believe thy word;
Or else deny ’tis not from ME,
And so go from your Lord.
One of the two you all must do—
Be guided by thy hand!
Or all must say another way,
"In it we will not stand."
I tell you plain, ye sons of men,
You cannot part ME here;
My honour I shall still maintain,
As I have said before:
The Woman’s hand the end must stand,
To make my Bible true—
The enmity let all command
That lays before their view.
So now discern the way I warn,
And see my Gospel plain—
The SPIRIT and the BRIDE is come,
A warning deep to Man.
And mark the first how all did burst,
Ere thou didst prophesy;
I said my Laws in thee were placed;
The time is drawing nigh
That all will see it so to be,
That none may mock their Lord
I made the Woman to be free,
Now I’ll fulfil MY WORD."

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When Mr. Carpenter read these lines he threw down the paper in a warmth of anger, and said my Communication was false; for it had not stopped the progress, neither should it; for the man came every day; and his door should not be shut against him; and he called forward a communication that Joseph had given him that morning, saying, that he, Carpenter, did right in receiving the man; and that communication, he further said, he believed came from God; and on it he would rely. I answered him, then I would leave it to time; as a warm debate was between him and me. He likewise had a communication from Joseph to stop his meeting on the 11th of May, and the words are as follows:

"Let Elias withdraw himself,
Nor meet the people more,
Till God does touch their hearts with grace,
And send him forth with power.
So saith the angel of God."

All this, I said, I would leave to time, as no communication was given to me for him to stop his meeting. So as both communications were contrary to mine, I said I did not believe them to be from the Lord; and Mr. Carpenter said he did; and from the warm manner he expressed himself made us part in anger. The next day a Sign was set to me, whereby the Truth should be known, which of us was led by the Spirit of God, Joseph or me; and that what would follow was in the letter, from the Sign that was there placed. This I was ordered to seal up; and to my astonishment Mr. Carpenter came the following day. We then entered into a strong debate about Joseph’s ordering him to stop the meeting, and which I said I did not believe came from the Lord; and told Mr. Carpenter of the letter that was sealed, whereby the truth would be proved in the end. I desired him to write his name on it, which he declined at first, saying he could take my word; but I said he should not, and insisted upon his writing

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his name on the letter, which he did. He then enquired what he was to do about his meeting; I told him, as Joseph gave him directions to stop it, he must wait to see whether he had other directions from Joseph to go on. The beginning of the following week he sent to me for directions; for Joseph had had none. I sent him back for answer, that he could not be directed by two; so he must rely wholly upon one or the other, Joseph or me; and they were to shew Joseph the letter that I sent, pointing out to him the danger of his being led by a wrong Spirit. In answer to this I received the following letter from Mr. Carpenter:

MY DEAR FRIEND, Received May 23, 1805.

"You request further answer from me—by what I will be led,—I answer the Spirit of God. If you say what has come from Joseph is from the devil, that must be the spirit I have all along been led by; therefore dare venture no further. If you say that one comes from the devil, I say all must, because there is a regular chain and connection, in the most spiritual and scriptural language I ever read. They all breathe such dependence on Christ’s merits, such purity and holiness, they have been received by me with such fear and trembling from my own unworthiness, filled me with such gratitude to God, they have melted some hard hearts that nothing else would work on, even brought some sealed back, that had deserted your cause, with tears. If they are proved from the devil I am a stranger to God; if they are from the devil I have deceived hundreds, and a deceiver I will not be,—Dowland’s and his have strengthened and confirmed many that were falling away, and for to support your cause I have used them, and that only. I am now disarmed for the battle, by these reports and thrown aside. The state of my mind for the distress of the cause is not to be conceived. My whole

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soul is in it,—but I cannot be a hypocrite,—my zeal for the cause hurries me into warmth, which is supposed to come from the devil, while those who can artfully have their own way by disguising truth can be calm,—I have no bitterness in me against mortal, but an honest indignation against art. Point out where Carpenter has used it, and he will be the first to proclaim it publicly to his people in the meeting, and in the Gazette if required,—If no understanding takes place, I will prove clearly from your Communications in the most clear way, that I have implicitly obeyed all. I never could receive any thing till I had the evidence of the Spirit within me—I opposed Joseph being taught to draw, your Communication proved I was right, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I opposed meeting without prayer in the end, from your Communication I was right, so of others, in these things I never boasted to mortal,—the communications you have recently sent me contradict each other, the reasonings are absolutely not true. As for following Joseph or Dowland I never did but where their teaching has been in unison with yours; in their teaching I consider them, that is the instruments totally out of the question,—It has been all answers to prayers, therefore it is not the devil answering them but me. But how did I follow the teaching when I sent to you for instruction on the Monday? Was that following them? did not that shew I would do nothing without you? My every hour is in prayer to God,—and I can die, if it is the will of God for the cause,—but I cannot belie my conscience in it,—if it comes from the devil, it destroys all I have done for the cause of God through you,—I believe the message was sent that I may be silent till persecution in believers against me is stopped, which has now got to an unbearable height,—and if no remedy takes place, all had better stand as it is,—More evil is done by

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disputing about me than I can do good. Your message has had one effect, that is to make Joseph to say if what he has, comes from the devil he will give no more,—from my soul I believe this quenching the Spirit,—Did that emphatic charge mean any thing when given? My soul is too sorrowful to write,—I shall only therefore say, a command that my spirit bears witness comes from God I would die before I would disobey,—Nor can I receive any thing till I have wrestled with God in prayer, for the Spirit’s witness within me,—When this mystery is cleared up (if ever it should be) I am willing to spend my last breath in the cause.

I remain your’s, &c.

(Signed,) E. CARPENTER."

To the above letter I was answered as follows:

"Now I shall answer thee from Carpenter’s words, saying your message has had the effect of quenching the spirit of Joseph. Now I ask Carpenter what he knows of ME? Does he understand what quenching the Spirit meaneth? Hath not the Spirit been tried to be quenched in thee? and thy Prophecies been despised? Now call reason to thy assistance; without trying the Spirits you cannot prove them; but I tell thee and all men, my Spirit cannot be quenched in an obedient heart; though it may be quenched and despised by the world at large. Know when thy prophecies were despised, and thy sister used her utmost skill to quench the spirit in thee; did that quench it? When others went to quench the Spirit, and confuse thy mind; did that quench the Spirit in thee? Did I not immediately give prophecies to convince them, and to convince thee, that it was I the Lord had spoken by thee? And now I tell thee this of Joseph: If my Spirit had been in him, no letter of thine would have

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quenched it, neither would the youth have answered, he would speak no more of what he heard, if it gave offence, or it came from the devil. This thou knowest hath been thy jealousy; but to thy jealousy did I give thee up? Did it not make thee a wrestling Jacob, till thou art become a prevailing Israel? And this, I tell thee, would be in the youth, if my Spirit was upon him: I should not have left him, but given him a sign whereby he should know the Spirit of Truth from the Spirit of Error. It is known to thee, and to thy friends, what Types and what Shadows I placed before thee, that thou mayest know the Truth was spoken by ME. Now let all men call reason to their assistance and judge for themselves: can they vainly suppose my Spirit is upon the youth, that shall threaten in this manner; or that my Spirit would leave him, if it was within him, because an evil spirit should judge him wrongfully? I tell thee, No. This was never my dealing with mankind; and let them discern my dealing with thee; the more thou hast been condemned the clearer I made the Truth. And now I tell thee of the youth: if I had permitted any spirit to deceive thee to make his calling the clearer, I should have given him an answer immediately to set a sign before Carpenter, the way and manner he should know from whence the Truth came, as I set a sign before thee; but now I tell thee, they cannot bear the plain truth to come before them. Now mark what I told thee of Joseph, when he heard what was said, they would see what was in the youth; and now they have discovered what is in him, instead of humbling his soul to the dust, fearing he hath given offence to ME to permit a wrong spirit to deceive him, and humbly to inquire into the cause, thou seest pride and stubbornness is risen in his heart. Then now I ask Carpenter what he thinks of ME, if he judge I should place such a youth for his directions, or for him to be led by? Have I not already told thee the sense and meaning

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of the visions was kept from him? then how shall I give him to be a director?

"Now I shall come to Wilmot’s words, saying, This youth could not be foiled; or who should foil him? But that meant in his sight; for who could foil or take his sight from him? what he saw he saw. If thou seest the sun to shine, there is no man can foil thee. If he tells thee he does not believe it, he cannot take thy sight from thee; neither could men take the sight from the youth to foil him there. And this is all I meant by foiling the youth; for it is known to thee, and to them, he hath been foiled in his judgment already, concerning Carpenter, which was explained to thee; and this I have permitted, to shew Carpenter he cannot depend upon the youth to direct him; for I now tell thee, there is a wide difference between shewing a vision to the youth and my Spirit being placed within him."

This was the answer given to me, in answer to Mr. Carpenter’s letter; and the same words are said to me now—

"Whatever visions Joseph affirms he seeth, it is impossible for men to prove he does not see them; so if the youth doth not foil himself, no man can foil him there; but when he giveth communications that are proved to be false and professes a calling that the Lord never called him to, then he foils himself, and those that trust in him, which is now plainly proved to every clear discerning eye."

But now I shall come to the purpose of Mr. Carpenter’s letter: the readers may see how strong his faith was in Joseph; but finding he had no directions from him, to go on with his meeting, after he had sent me this letter, he came himself, and after a long and warm debate between him and me, concerning Joseph, he faithfully promised to follow no directions but what were given through me; and if I gave him directions to go on with his meetings

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he would go on as before. The day following I was ordered to send him a few lines to meet the people as soon as his health would permit; he then followed my directions, and went on prosperously in his journeys, as he saith in his letter, and the same at his meeting at home. After he went on by my directions, many obstacles that he complained of were removed out of his way; and I was in hopes he would have gone on steadily by my directions; but here began a fresh contention and dispute, between him and me, concerning Joseph as before. He sent me the following lines, which Joseph had in answer to his prayers—given Wednesday morning, June 26:

"Thy heart is good, and pure withal,
The Lord of Hosts—doth say,
To Townley, Sharp, and Wilson, he doth call,
With strict command this day
To join their hand and heart with thee,
The burthening part to bear;
That when Christ’s kingdom is proclaimed,
They all may have their share.
So saith the angel of God."

After giving thanks for the above, these words were added:

"It is the Lord that hath this sent,
Their purse for this is to them lent.
So saith the angel of God."

This communication of Joseph, with more to the same purpose, Mr. Carpenter sent to me with these words: "I hope we shall be engaged in no argument on it. I conceive it my duty to send it to you—and am resolved not to comment or give any opinion but leave it with you to use it as the Spirit shall direct."

When I received this letter from Miss Carpenter, I desired her to say nothing about it, till I had an answer concerning it. As soon as she was gone, and I went into my room, alone to myself, I was answered, Joseph’s communication was not from the Lord: and so far from Mr. Carpenter’s heart being good

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and pure, the Lord knew he was a man with many infirmities. But the Lord would give me a Communication of the way Mr. Carpenter should be eased of his burden; for the Lord did not require him to give up his time for nought. This I told Underwood the same day as the letter came; but as there had been such public dispute and contention about what happened in May, as there were other letters sent to me, upbraiding my friends, as though I gave communications to please them, to be against Joseph’s, this filled my friends with indignation, to think Mr. Carpenter should judge them so falsely, and me so harshly; therefore I concealed this communication of Joseph’s from them, as I wished to have all disputes die, and not to agitate their minds with any more of his letters; and as Mr. Carpenter said in his letter, he wished to have no altercation upon it, I wished the same. And as my readers may see from his letter in May, how his spirits were agitated by my saying Joseph’s communication was not from the Lord, I did not wish to tell him from whence it came, but wished it to pass away in silence; and having also a communication given me, wherein Joseph’s words were contradicted, and repeatedly said the Lord demanded no man’s purse; for what was not done by free will without a command was not accepted by the Lord; but Mr. Carpenter should make a collection, as others did; for it was not the will of the Lord for him to go on without trying his hearers, whether they had love enough to support him: and if he had a thousand a year of his own, it was not the will of the Lord he should preach for nothing; because he could not know whether they were profited by hearing him, or whether they only went out of curiosity, if he did not make collections to try their love. This was the sense of the Communication: and it was said to me, law makers should not be law breakers; and as through me the command was given for him to make the collections, I was

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ordered to begin, which I did, and my friends joined with me; so we sent our subscriptions with the communication; and I was in hopes all would have passed away in silence, that we should be all united in peace; and was answered at the time, if we were not united in peace the fault would be in Mr. Carpenter’s being led by a wrong spirit. The words that were spoken have been since sent to him, which I kept back at that time, as I was ordered. After this Mrs. Wilmot came and said Mr. Carpenter wished to send Joseph’s words to the three mentioned. I desired her to tell him not to send them; for it would kindle strife; but did not tell her from whence they came. My reasons I have told my readers already; as they may discern from Mr. Carpenter’s letter in May, the confusion there was about the first, therefore I thought to prevent it in this; I would not say from whence it came; but all my wishes of concealing it were in vain. After this Mr. Carpenter himself called upon me in a hurry, saying he had friends waiting for him, and was talking of his journeys and other things. In the midst of his conversation he said he wished to send the letter with the communication of Joseph to the three that were mentioned, as he could not be satisfied if he did not. I said, then he might send it; but I had no thought on the communication, to tell him it would cause strife; so he sent the letters, saying he had my consent, which made them bring the letters to me. I then told them of my communication, that I was answered it was not from the Lord; and they were to draw their own judgment, to write an answer as they thought proper. They answered his letter according to their own judgment, concerning the spirit those lines came from: and both remarked in their letters, they should be jealous of a spirit that told them their hearts were good and pure. Mr. Sharp observed in his letter, that that purity must come from Christ alone; as it could not be in fallen man. These answers provoked Mr. Carpenter to

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the greatest indignation; but he did not answer either of their letters, to dispute with them, but sent Miss Carpenter to me, who told me what letters they had sent, and seemed much surprised that they could call it a lying spirit. At which I answered, that I was told it was from a lying spirit, and not from the Lord. At the same time she brought a letter for Miss Townley, which I did not know the contents of, till after she was gone. I then found Mr. Carpenter had sent the same lines to her, and persisted in his opinion that they were from the Lord, without regarding my communication, which contradicted the words. He took notice in his letter of being ordered to keep Joseph in his house; to which I sent him the following letter, which I shall give in part, as the long reasoning I used from myself can be of no use to the public, therefore I shall omit this. Underwood was called upon, at the beginning, to answer to the words as follows:

DEAR SIR, July 29, 1805.

As Mrs. Southcott has a Communication given her to clear up all truths to you concerning Joseph, she has called upon me to write you the truth from the beginning:

Soon after she heard Joseph’s Communication, which Miss Carpenter brought her, she was much distressed in her mind, and thought it prudent to conceal the communication until she had an answer from the Lord; and after retiring, alone to herself, she was answered, that communication was not from the Lord; yet for wise ends it was permitted; but the Lord would give her a communication what you should do, that the burden might not lie too heavy upon you; for the Lord had not called you to give up your time, without being supported, and that the devil had room to upbraid concerning the communication, which was given you at Leeds; still she was determined to conceal Joseph’s communication,

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to prevent any confusion that might arise from the persons it was addressed to; and was in hopes the communication given through her might have satisfied you respecting Joseph’s.

And now I shall give you some of the verses that were given to Joanna after the verses that were sent to you concerning Mr. Sharp who joined with us.

"Like Wilson, he’th begun for peace,
To make all jarring passions cease;
So now with Wilson he is found
To sign for peace—let peace abound;
But if that peace do not appear,
Then Sharp in everything I’ll clear,
To prove the fault is not in he,
As all together did agree,
That their two seals should join as one,
To have the seals of peace be come,
But if that peace be not now made,
Then Carpenter must be misled,
I tell thee, by some spirit wrong;
For I ordain’d what Sharp hath done.
But this you do not understand,
Till further mysteries you command;
For if the peace again is broke,
I tell thee there must come a stroke,
That will be kindled by a foe,
And Carpenter the end will know,
That he, like Sharp, hath been to blame,
His anger for to set a-flame.
I know the spirits of the men,
The way their jarring first began,
And how the strife did first appear;
I tell thee plain, they both did err,
As they in mind could not agree,
They’re not one make, ’tis known to ME;
And by their discord words did rise,
And soon inflamed their enemies,
To kindle sparks into a flame.
This way I say their anger came;
Because, I say, you don’t discern
The way the whole is carried on;
Because that Sharp began the peace—
And now ’tis time to have all cease
Of discord that is past before.—
Another day I’ll tell thee more,
When Carpenter hath told his mind,
Which thou from him wilt surely find;
For Satan he will sure work strong
To have their jarring strife go on."

(Witness,) ANN UNDERWOOD.

And now I shall answer for myself, as I find you understood, from what I said to Mrs. Wilmot, that

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I allowed Joseph’s communication to be from the Lord; but saying a thing is permitted by the Lord is by no means saying it comes from the Lord. And now I shall assign my reason for my conduct, why I have acted as I have. You said in your letter, you hoped we should be engaged in no argument on it. Now from your letter you expressed a wish to give up the whole to my directions, without any contention; now I must call to your remembrance what contention the last communication caused, when I told you, that did not come from the Lord. You did not know how to give it up; and many controversies ensued, for which reason, as soon as I saw this communication from Joseph, and being informed it was not from the Lord, I thought it prudent to conceal it.—

HERE FOLLOWS THE ANSWER OF THE LORD CONCERNING JOSEPH.

"Now, Joanna, I shall answer thee the mystery concerning Carpenter and Joseph. How could I make clear to the world, to shew mankind the different conduct of Satan’s working and mine, if I had not permitted an instrument that he could work by to prove it? Now mark from Joseph’s visitations, when he gives any command, as prophecies, and they are condemned, Satan gives no proof to clear himself; but thou knowest I give a clear proof to prove by the truth, from whence it comes. But as the unbelieving world crieth out, thine is from the devil, how could I so clearly shew the way and manner Satan works, if I did permit none of his working to appear in man? Then you could not see the difference; therefore it is written, Try the Spirits; but how could you try the spirits, if no different spirits appeared? Therefore, I tell thee, weak is thy judgment, and weak is Carpenter’s judgment in this, to think the youth would not be ordered to abide in his house, if he was visited by a wrong spirit. And now I shall tell thee from the beginning: Carpenter took him into his house because of the visions,

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without asking of counsel; and though the youth hath forsaken ME in heart and thought, I tell thee, it is not right for Carpenter immediately to turn him out, and give Satan more advantage over him than he hath already. And now, I tell thee, the very way thou hast tried to keep peace, and make every mind the more at ease, is the very way the strife began, and the minds are more uneasy; and the very way the devil hath worked in Joseph to kindle strife, and foil you, and to distress thy mind and his, to think why this should be permitted, it is only to make my Truth the clearer, and shew the different working of Satan and ME: for though he cometh as an angel of light, if he can deceive, yet you see there is no judgment in his goings, nor any standard of truth to walk by. Therefore, I tell thee, these things are permitted, that you may all see the footsteps of Satan, his ways, and his working; and that he can never clear himself, if the truth is demanded. And now call to thy remembrance, when men have tried to foil thee, how I brought forward the Truth to clear thee; and in this cause mark the Type I set, and by these things ye must know the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error. But how could I so clearly shew you the difference, if the spirit of error did not appear, to shew you in what manner was Satan’s working? and I have shewed thee from Signs whereby the Truth may be known, that ye may discern the different Spirits."

This I sent to Mr. Carpenter; and in the same letter observed to him—If Joseph’s communication had been from the Lord, it could not kindle strife, neither should I have wished to have kept it back; but from my Communication you must be convinced Joseph and I could not be led by one Spirit; because the spirit that directs me contradicts the spirit that directs Joseph: and we know the Lord does not say and unsay, to contradict his own words. Now as both cannot be true, and you are halting between two opinions, I may say with Elijah—How long

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halt you between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him: now perfectly so I say to you; if you believe the communications given to Joseph are from the Lord, then follow him; but if not, and that you believe mine are from the Lord, then follow me. After sending this letter, Mr. Carpenter took no notice of it to answer it; but Mrs. Wilmot came to have directions from me as before. I told her I was to give no directions before Mr. Carpenter had fixed his resolution, by which he would be led; as I told him in the letter, he was no longer to halt between two opinions. I sent him a few lines to know on which he would depend, Joseph or me; for two directors he would not have. He sent me for answer the following words:—

"No difference of opinion I am confident would ever have arisen with you and me, had there been no one between us, had no opinion been formed in your mind, but that which arose from your communications, and your own observation on my conduct. I firmly believe your visitation is from God; I firmly believe in obedience you are pure, &c."—The remainder of this letter shall appear hereafter, as I am ordered to print but three sheets in each Book, before the whole is cleared up; therefore, I cannot go through the letters that I have sent to him, or he to me, in this publication; because two particular letters must appear; but when the whole is cleared up, I will prove to the whole world that Mr. Carpenter’s own conduct hath proved every word of Joseph’s teaching false.

The purport of Mr. Carpenter’s letter was in the same chain of faith concerning Joseph’s teaching, as the letter he sent in May, which may be discerned in my answer to it, which is as follows, as I am ordered to put the whole of my letter in print:

SIR, August 13th, 1805.

You say, no difference of opinion would ever have arisen with you and me, had there been no

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one between us, or no opinion been formed in my mind but that which arose from my Communications, and my own observation on your conduct.

To your words I answer, it is a matter of indifference to me, now you have so clearly thrown off the mask, what opinion you have got of me; as I plainly discern from your letter, you must judge I have a conscience that can and will be biased by man, which I have taken every pains before now to convince you, that no one living should bias my conscience; and clearly to convince you, that no one had any hand in biasing my mind or thoughts, concerning Joseph’s last communication, I made Underwood write in the last letter I sent you the words that were spoken to me the same day the communication was brought, that it was not from the Lord, and this was before any one had seen the communication, or knew even there had been one given; therefore my mind was biased by no one, but by the Spirit that attends me; and when the words were given that were sent to you, wherein it is said I command no man’s purse, no one but Underwood and myself knew a word of Joseph’s communication, when it was said to me, I command no man’s purse. Therefore I appeal to him that is the judge of all hearts and thoughts, my mind was not biased by any flesh living, but by a Spirit invisible. Your judgment of me, thinking I am such a hardened wretch, that in a work or cause like this, I would suffer my mind to be biased by man, does not now give me the pain that I have formerly felt from your letters; because I know you have accused me in like manner before; but now I must appeal to your conscience, whether you would not be offended, if I were to write to you in like manner, and tell you Joseph’s mind was biased to give communications to please you? Would you not be offended, and say I judged you harshly? You will answer, Yes; you should shudder at the thought to bias his conscience;—and yet you judge it is an easy matter for

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me to mock God and trifle with eternity, to let my conscience be biased; but I must be plain to tell you, harsh as you judge my friends, they never attempted it; and I believe they would all grow jealous, if they saw I had a conscience that would be biased. But as I have told you already, I tell you again, I would sooner beg my bread, or starve in the street, than I would act to be a man pleaser; therefore as my own conscience is innocent, I care not who condemns me guilty—the Lord is my judge and not man. Your first judgment is perfectly wrong. And now I shall come to another observation; you say I did not tell you it was from the devil, before you had sent the letters. I ask you what use it would have been, my telling you so, when you now affirm in your letter, you do not believe it was from the devil? Then if I had told you so, you would have judged it was an artful thing in me to have you keep back the letters from their knowledge. I desired both Miss Carpenter and Mrs. Wilmot it should not be sent; and you know I have told you, from the last disturbance, you would not believe me; then of what use was my telling you from whence it came? But it was my duty, after you had sent it, to tell my friends from whence it came, who believe in no directions but what are given through me; but you have plainly told me, you do not. I must refer you to my last letter, in which I assigned my reasons, and you must discern that Joseph or me must be led by a wrong spirit; because he saith it was from the Lord, and I was told it was not from the Lord. So your letter decides the whole, to have all contentions drop between you and me; you believe Joseph cannot be deceived; and you believe I am deceived; then what communion can you and I have any more together? It is of no use to halt between two opinions; and know what was said in the last communication—you must leave the one, and cleave to the other; for two directors you will

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not have; for all contentions are now at an end. You say in your letter, you believe my visitation to be from the Lord, and yet at the same time you believe I am deceived by the devil, or I must be one myself. There is no other judgment you can draw, if you read over both my letters; the first, in the Communication respecting the collections, where it is expressly said there was no command—"for I demand no man’s purse;" in the second letter it is expressly said Joseph’s communication came from the devil, wherein he saith, "Townley, Sharp, and Wilson, I do call," &c.—"Their purse to them for this is lent."—Now there can be no dispute of want of judgment, or misunderstanding, where words are spoken in such plain contradiction to each other. I know you have an idea that my friends are not your friends, and they have prejudiced my mind against you. In this you have drawn a wrong judgment, because you do not know me; but know what I have told you in the other letter, it was you yourself, when I was at your house, wounded my heart, by telling me to my face, before Underwood, that my Communication was wrong and Joseph’s was right. This was the way the strife began, and made me in earnest prayer, that the God of Truth would lead me into every truth; and from my prayers the Sign was set, whereby the Truth should be made known. And now it is said to me the Lord will not suffer you any longer to wound my heart with your contention, of what Joseph saith, or what Dowland saith, or disputing my Communications; for here the strife and contention must end one way or the other. Now as you say in your letter, I have not done you justice, to keep back the letter that is sealed up, that you are not permitted to judge for yourself, I now give you liberty to fix any day to come, and bring a friend with you that you think proper to choose; and I shall choose Mr. Wilson, because he always was your friend, before you yourself kindled the strife. For I now tell you, it is neither Wilson, Underwood, nor me,

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that ever was prejudiced against you, from any persuasions of any one; and all that has changed any opinion we formerly had of you is your own conduct, as I have told you, when I was at your house. Your words went as a dagger to my heart; in like manner you wounded me again, when you came here, disputing my Communications were wrong, and Joseph’s were true. Here I confess my mind was greatly stumbled, why you were chosen in such manner, and be so full of doubts and jealousies of every Communication that was given to me, that did not suit your mind. You have been always taking in question from whence it came. This is one thing that hath stumbled me greatly; and knowing Joseph or I must be deceived, I told you the Sign was set before me, which I have offered now to clear up. But as you judge Mr. Sharp your enemy, I shall not choose him to decide at all on this matter: but now, I tell you, I am the judge between you both, that you are a greater enemy to Mr. Sharp than ever he was to you; because Mr. Sharp told me himself, that he judged you to have a good heart, though you were led away by so many different people. Now you say yourself, that Mr. Sharp is a son of iniquity;—but what grounds have you to judge his heart in this manner? Who art thou, O man, that judgest another? Does not our Saviour entirely forbid it? They are no doers of the law, but judges; and with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged. How different from Mr. Sharp’s letter have you placed the words in your letter, in a manner never spoken by him; because he hath brought me the copy of his letter, that I may judge of the truth: And he expressed he should have been as jealous for himself as he was for you, if a Communication of that kind had been given to him. His words are these—"That the Spirit that dictated these lines to Joseph, that you have sent to me, is a blasphemous lying spirit."—And now I tell you it is said to me, The Lord

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worked a warmth in Sharp’s heart to answer that communication of Joseph’s; for it is known to the Lord, that by biased minds and evil spirits wrong communications have been given concerning Mr. Sharp, by Dowland to you.—And now the mystery must be made known; the heart of Sharp is known to the Lord; and man is not to judge of him. And thus far I shall say of Mr. Sharp, I had a weighty Communication given to me concerning the faithfulness of his heart, before ever I saw him, or one of the gentlemen who came to Exeter; and when they came I was ordered to put the greatest part of my writings into his care and possession; and after my printing began in London, to his care is the whole committed, to look after all the printing. This summer I had a Communication given to me concerning Foley, and Sharp, how much they had acted like Abraham, when he offered up his son Isaac, in giving up their wisdom to the wisdom of the Lord, in printing the two Books of the Parables, which is said to me was a likeness of Abraham’s faith, in giving up their wisdom, so contrary to the wisdom of man, by a strength of faith, knowing the wisdom of the Lord could not err; which faith and obedience the Lord has promised to reward. Now I am clearly convinced the Lord would not have accepted this faith and obedience from them, and promise to reward them, if the heart of Sharp had appeared in the sight of the Lord as it appeareth in your sight;—therefore I may say, I am greatly stumbled in many things, when I consider your calling and his; and that such anger should have been between you. ’Tis these are the things that stumble me, which the Lord hath promised in the end, HE will clear up every mystery to me.—Here I have shewed you the things that stumble me; and I have told you how much you have grieved me; and know that it is you yourself that have broken yourself off, by your unbelief of my Communications, because they do not please you like Joseph’s. And now I shall

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give you the answer of the Lord to some parts of your letter, which is as follows:

THE ANSWER OF THE SPIRIT.

"I now tell thee thy burden shall be broke off; the fire of contention shall go out; no longer shall Carpenter weary thy mind with his disputes and jealousies; for here is the folly that is in mankind, professing to have high thoughts of his God, while at the same time he is professing to believe ME a God of contention, strife, and confusion; for I now ask thee what any man can judge of ME if I had given one direction to Joseph, and then contradict it to thee; to contradict my own words, and kindle strife and contention amongst the believers? This, I tell thee, must be Carpenter’s judgment, if he judge Joseph’s communication and thine are both from the Lord. And now I shall answer from his letter: Let Carpenter know his heart and prayers are all known to ME; and thy heart and thy prayers are equally known to ME; then tell him, from his observation, if he judge I have deceived thee, he must judge I am another such as he hath pointed out in his letter: and let him know it is known to ME how often he hath wounded thy heart, how often he hath grieved thy spirit, by his contention of thy communications; and let him know there is not a man amongst the whole that I have chosen, hath wounded and grieved thy heart as much, by jealousy, as Carpenter hath done. Then let him judge for himself, if I am not just to permit Satan to deceive the youth, to put him to the trial; for know I have told thee, in the faith that he now stands, he is by no means fit for thy awful trial. A man that believes thou hast a conscience that will be biased by man can never believe thou art visited by my Spirit, in the manner I have told thee; and I told them all, that my Spirit is upon thee, my Spirit is within thee, that thou art born of my Spirit, to hear my small still voice within, that unto thee the Comforter

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is sent, to bring all things to your remembrance, and to point out your redemption. This is the Spirit of Truth, that I said should be with you, and that should be in you, and this I have told you is the SPIRIT and the BRIDE. Now let Carpenter remember all thy character, that I have placed in the Bible; then let him know thou canst not be deceived, if thy visitation is from the Lord; therefore he must believe thy visitation true or false; for he cannot place it with Dowland’s and Joseph’s; and therefore Carpenter must know that he hath wounded and grieved thy spirit; and therefore I have permitted these things to come to him to grieve his spirit, as he hath grieved thine: and he will be grieved while he attends to visitations and communications that condemn my chosen; and while he grieves thy spirit, he will grieve my Spirit; then how can I free him of his burden? And now I tell thee of his saying, he will receive all that he believes comes from the Lord, be it through whom it may. Now I shall answer thee from his words: If Carpenter will receive every communication that is brought to him, that appeareth likely to come from the Lord, he will find Satan will work as an angel of light to find instruments to deceive him; therefore I tell thee, if this be Carpenter’s mind, it is impossible for thee to be joined with him. And now I know thy pondering thoughts: why was he chosen in this manner? Here is thy mind stumbled, as it was in the former ministers; but I tell thee, in the end, I shall clear up every mystery, why I have stumbled thee, in the whole, the past, and the present. Now as Carpenter hath said so much in his letter, what he judges of his God, if he judge I would suffer him to be deceived in Joseph; now let him call reason to his assistance, and land back his thoughts from the beginning of the three. When Dowland said he was visited by my Spirit he demanded a maintenance to be supported thereby; Joseph was taken from the workhouse and supported for his visions; but when

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I visited thee in 1792, thou demandedst no assistance of any one, but ran every hazard to know if it was I the Lord had spoken by thee. Let them remember the number of years, what thou hast went through to carry on my work; to assist thy aged father; to support thyself. All these things are known to ME, what thou hast done in love to ME, to deny thyself the comforts of life, when thou hast worked early and late, and to know my will and obey it, is well known to ME, was all thou hadst in view; but I ask Carpenter what love Dowland or Joseph have shewn to ME in all my visitation to them? Then now let Carpenter answer ME, what judgment he draweth of his God, if he think I shall ill requite thy love, to place Dowland and Joseph before thee, which by his judgment he hath done? But I now tell thee, it is as far from ME as the heavens are from the earth; my ways are not as Carpenter’s ways, nor my thoughts as his thoughts, to place you three on a footing together, as all men will find in the end. And now as Carpenter hath drawn his judgment of ME, thinking I must be cruel to forsake Joseph when he hath forsaken ME, let him answer what he judges of ME, to forsake thee, whose love continued from 1792 to 1802, before the burden of thy distress and sufferings for my sake, was in any manner relieved? And let him discern every hazard thou hast run for my sake to put the letters in the hands of the clergy, to prove from whence thy visitation was, well knowing if it was not from ME, the truth would not follow, and they would come forward. Now let Carpenter bring forward that man, or that woman, that went through ten years, what thou hast gone through in love to ME, and then let him tell ME what he judges of God, if he thinks thou art the person that I have deceived, to be mocked and despised. For I now tell thee, Sharp’s judgment is more clear concerning ME, than Carpenter’s; because he looks to the beginning, and the different conduct of the whole. And once more remind Carpenter, he took Joseph

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into his house without any command from ME; and when his conduct had provoked ME to withdraw every vision from him, doth Carpenter think it his duty to turn the youth out of doors, before he hath tried to point out my love to him in the beginning, if he had went on to regard my love, and walked in my ways, and been sensible of his visitation? Thus Carpenter ought to reason with the youth; but I now tell thee, it is but hardening his heart in sin, for Carpenter to tell him he is visited by my Spirit, while he payeth no regard to my visitation. Let not Carpenter vainly imagine I shall visit Joseph for his sake, as though I could gain no other instrument to work by. Now let Carpenter answer ME; for I tell thee, as an angel of light Satan hath worked on Carpenter’s mind, to blind his understanding and his reason; because he doth not place justice where justice is due; neither doth he place love where love is due; neither hath Carpenter reasoned aright on the justice, mercy, and truth of his God. Now let my answer be sent to him; and let him know what I said of Eli—They that honour ME I will honour; and they that despise ME shall be lightly esteemed. And let him answer which of the two he judges hath most honoured ME in heart and life, Joseph or thee; let this be answered by Carpenter and then let him tell ME, how he judges his God."

Here I have faithfully given you the answer of the Lord, that you may judge for yourself. I have given it word for word, without forming any judgment; but I have left you to draw your own. But I shall draw some observations more from your letter. What you say is your prayer I believe is the prayer of every Christian upon earth; and that we may be as clay in the hands of the potter; for his will to be done in us, and by us, that we may not act wrong in a spirit of our own, ought to be the prayer of every one that is a believer that the Lord is at hand, to redeem us from all imperfections, and renew us to his likeness and image.

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But I know it is the opinion of many, that all Christ’s righteousness is in them, as I have heard them say; but from their conduct I could never see it; therefore I think it is right to be jealous for ourselves. There is one observation more I shall make from your letter, wherein you complain so much of the burden you bear. In this I fear you may grieve the Spirit of the Lord, and provoke him to anger; because I can tell you, there are many that are gone out in the same work; and if you call it a burden, they have a much heavier burden laid on them, than you have on you; and yet they are so far from calling it a burden, that they call it a blessing, and rejoice to think they are counted worthy to suffer reproach, persecution, and mockery, for the sake of their Lord: and know what is said in the Scriptures, Jeremiah xxiii. 33 to 39. Now if you weigh these verses deeply you will clearly see, you may bring a sin upon yourself, to be complaining so much of the burden of the Lord; because if you believe the Lord hath called you through me, to warn the people of the days that are at hand, then it is his burden you are complaining of; but if you judge it is not a command of the Lord, but I gave it from myself; then you may say it is my burden that you are bearing, and so my heart you have been wounding with your letters and complaining. But now I must come to the conclusion: know I have offered you to come and clear up every thing, with a friend of yours, and a friend of mine; and if you accept the proposals, send me a line, and fix the day, any time after two o’clock, and I shall be ready to receive you. If you refuse the proposal, say not that injustice is on my side, that I have forsaken you, as you have forsaken me, without letting the truth be fairly tried. And now I shall conclude, with your own words—May God bless you, and free you from every thing which retards the progress of the cause, is the prayer

of your sincere friend in the Lord,

J. SOUTHCOTT.

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In answer to this letter I received an abusive letter from Mr. Carpenter, and full of the same opinion concerning Joseph as the letter sent in May; but he refused to answer what the Lord required of him, concerning Joseph and me, which will be proved by his letters appearing at a future period; but in his letter in answer to the above, of coming to clear up the whole, he returns me this answer:

"You invite me to come to you—for what? for him, that you say has been your greatest tormentor, to torment you again! Seeing a communication given for him three months ago, can be no service to him now. Nor in the manner in which I am now considered and treated, will I ever more come unless there is a positive command for it."

In answer to this letter I was answered, there was no command for him to come, as he had refused the invitation; and to his word he should now stand, not to come; but as he had refused to answer the request the Lord required of him, I should answer his letter myself, and draw my own judgment, from the answer that was given me to his letter; but not send the Communication to him. On the Sunday following Mr. Tozer, a particular friend of Mr. Carpenter, came to me with a letter he had received from his sister, which she desired him to bring to me. The time he stayed with me his conversation was concerning Mr. C., whom he spoke of in the highest terms, looking upon Mr. C. as the most zealous and liveliest believer that I had got; and said he believed that Mr. C. would go by every direction of mine. I made him no answer, but thought to myself he did not know Mr. C., and as I found him so much his friend, I thought if I said any thing of Mr. C.’s wavering faith he might tell him of it, and it might kindle more strife than was already; therefore I made no answer to the praises he gave Mr. C., and as I was silent, my friends were likewise, as they are always afraid to introduce a subject they see me silent upon. The next day I was answered, as Mr. Tozer was so

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strong a friend of Mr. C. I should write to him to be a judge between us; and as Mr. Winter one of the jury was another great friend of Mr. C. I should write to him, as a command from the Lord, to come forward with Mr. Tozer to meet some of the other judges and jury, to pass their judgment between us; Mr. Brandon and Mr. Pritchard were permitted to come on Mr. C.’s side.

An important Communication, to Joanna Southcott, on Monday, September 2, 1805, for Mr. Tozer.

On Monday morning early, August the 26th, Mr. Tozer was awaked by a Voice; he then went out of bed to prayer; he then heard he was to pay attention. After being in bed again for some time, he was shewn a sheet of paper with writing on two sides and a half: the Voice said, What he saw there was false; but he should buy a threepenny sheet of royal paper, and carry it to Joanna Southcott, and what was written on that sheet would be true.

On the Monday morning Mr. Tozer went to Mr. Carpenter’s house, and he was not at home. In the evening he saw Mr. C. and told him of it. On the Thursday, the 29th, Mr. Tozer received a letter from Joanna, that he must come and be a judge between Mr. C. and her. When her letter was read, which she sent to Mr. C., they asked Mr. Tozer his judgment; but he told them, he would pass no judgment till he had received what was to be given to Joanna on that sheet of paper: and on Sunday, the 1st of September, he brought it to her.

The following is the answer from the Lord:

Monday morning, Sept. 2, 1805.

Joanna was ordered to open her Bible three times, and put in three pens. The first place she opened to was part of the 26th and part of the 27th chapters of St. Matthew. The 75th verse is what she was

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ordered to pen—And Peter remembered the words of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly. Jeremiah xxii. 5—If ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation. Job xxxviii. 2—Who is this, that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

THE ANSWER OF THE SPIRIT.

"Now I shall answer thee from these Scriptures, that thou hast opened to. With words without knowledge, I now tell thee, Carpenter and his friends are darkening counsel together, to confound and to confute my faithful dealings with thee. For now I shall call to thy remembrance my first Visitation to thee, in 1792.—I said I went to try thy obedience; and now will I swear unto thee, as I did unto Abraham, I will make with thee an everlasting covenant, and save thee with an everlasting Salvation."

When these words came to me, my soul was troubled in the dust before God, and I began to cry out, What am I! or what is my father’s house, that thou hast thus honoured me, unworthy wretch as I am!—my past life makes me ashamed of myself!— These words came to me:—

"I will reward thy obedience; and in blessing I will bless thee; and as I kept nothing from Abraham, I will keep nothing from thee. Thou shalt prophesy in my name, and I will bear thee witness; what I put in thy mouth, that will I do on the earth."

Then these words came to me:

"The Lord is awake, as one out of sleep. The voice of the Lord shall shake terribly the earth; pestilence and famine shall go through the lands; men’s hearts shall fail them for very trouble; because they have not known the visitation of the Lord."

As soon as these words came to me, I trembled and was afraid of his majesty and greatness; tears of humiliation ran down my eyes, and a holy fear

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seized my soul; I wept bitterly, and wondered at his divine goodness, to such an unworthy creature as I was; but these words were answered me:—

"I have seen all thy enquiries, to know my will and obey it; and now I will reward thee.—Dost thou believe it?"

I cried out, Yea, Lord, if it be thy voice, I do believe it; for I know thou art not a man, to lie; nor the son of man, to be wavering. I have always found thee a God like thyself, faithful to thy word, and faithful to thy promises.—I was answered:—

"Dost thou think I will now?"

I said, Yea, Lord, if it be thy word; I know thou wilt; thou hast been faithful to thy word throughout the Bible, in every age of the world; a God, the same yesterday, to-day, and for ever.—I was answered:—

"Thus thou believest; and thus thou shalt find ME—faithful to my word, and faithful to my promises: And next Sunday I will fulfil my promise at my table." Which, I bless God, I felt remarkably; and waited with a holy longing for the blessed promise made by Jesus Christ. I then made a solemn vow to God, to be obedient to all his commands, as far as I saw his righteous will concerning me, earnestly praying, that I might not be deceived by my own weak understanding, nor deceived by the arts of Satan, praying that the Lord would keep me from every evil, and the evil of sin.

"Now I shall answer thee, why I ordered thee to put the words that are in print of my first visitation to thee on his paper; for know he told thee, the Voice told him, the truth should come before him on the paper: And now I tell thee, all men shall know, upon the paper the Truth is placed. This was my first Visitation to thee; and these were my promises; and let him discern how my promise stands, between me and thee; and let him discern my visitation, in what manner I am going on with the nations; what hath followed since 1792 to this day;

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let him discern deeply what hath already been done; and let him discern the clouds that are gathering high over every land; then he must discern the truth is before him; and let him deeply discern thy prayers, to be kept humble at my feet, and drink deep into my Spirit; then let him judge whose prayers are heard and answered, Joseph’s prayers or thine. And now come to the Scriptures that I have explained to thee. Now let him discern the promise I made thee at first, that a faithful God thou shouldest always find ME, to my words and to my promises that I made unto thee; and let them discern the Covenant between ME and thee, that was concealed from the world before I ordered thee to put it in print.—And do men vainly imagine I shall act as a faithless God to thee? I tell them, No: The word is gone out of my mouth, and it is known to ME, who searcheth the hearts and trieth the reins of the children of men, thou hast been faithful in all thy obedience to ME; and I will be faithful in every promise to thee: for the gates of hell shall never prevail against thee; nor all the arts that men or devils can try, they never shall overthrow the promises I have made to thee; all shall find them, Yea, and Amen—As spoken in the beginning I will prove in the ending—Therefore, I tell thee, whoever darkens counsel, to wound and grieve thy heart, or place thy visitation with those that have not sought to serve ME, let them answer ME. For this was my demand to Carpenter, for him to answer whom he judged I should be most faithful to, to give every word of truth to, and not suffer Satan to deceive—Joseph or thee? for I now tell thee, they have darkened counsel, to confound my words and promises, that I have made thee.—But let them remember, when I laid the foundation of the earth, had they understanding to know my decrees, when I took the Woman from the Bone of Man, and formed her for his Helpmate, and said the Man was not good alone? And now I tell thee,

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good alone man cannot be; for it is not all the prophecies of Men, whatever visitations they now receive, shall ever be made clear to them, if they depart from the Woman, that I created for their helpmate, when I laid the foundation of the earth.—Know the promise I first made of the Woman, and the promise I made to the Woman.—Now I tell thee, whoever darkens this counsel will find the truth of the prophet’s words, that I directed thy hand to open to—For that house shall become a desolation; because, I tell thee, such men darken the counsel of the Lord in the Creation, and darken my counsel throughout my Bible. Therefore, I tell thee, it is impossible for man now to stand alone; for I shall darken all the counsel of men that now begin to darken mine; for if old things are done away, and all things become new, then know, O vain and simple men, the Woman’s Fall must be done away, and her innocence must now appear in true obedience to her God, that she might become a new creature, in perfect obedience to her Creator. This I tell you, O simple men, the Woman first must be made free, before you can be free indeed, to be made HEIRS of GOD, and joint Heirs with the SON. Can Man, that is born of a Woman, say he is redeemed from the Fall before the Woman is freed, by her true obedience, from the guilt of the Fall? This, I tell you, cannot be, to clear my honour as a God.—And know how I have explained to thee my dying to take the blame Man cast on his Creator, that I might destroy the works of the devil, according to my promise, for betraying the Woman. And know, on him she cast her blame: now here is my JUSTICE, and here is my TRUTH, to suffer the one, that the author of the evil might suffer the other. And now I tell thee of all men; whoever denieth the Truth of my Promise, that it shall not be fulfilled, denieth ME as much as Peter did: But I now tell thee, every true Peter, when they call all things to their remembrance, will weep bitterly, as Peter did, and say

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within themselves—"If we deny the Promise that was made to the Woman, we must deny Christ."— And these are the Peters that I call my disciples; and I now tell thee, without this discernment of my Gospel, and of my Bible, no man can be a Peter for ME. And I now tell thee, whatever men may meet together to darken counsel, and hew out to themselves any broken cisterns, they will find there is no living water in them; but in the end their houses will be desolate; for I have sworn by myself, as I can swear by no greater, that I now will be faithful to fulfil the Promise I made to the Woman in the Creation; and to fulfil the Promise I have now made to the Woman, to fulfil her Petition for her Redemption. Then know all men, as Man stood with her, as joining with her in the Condemnation of the Fall, so Man that stands with her now, to join with her in the Promise, stands with her for his Redemption.—Now come to my Gospel: (St. John xvi. 7 to the 14.) mark the words that I said to my disciples—The Comforter should come; and when he comes he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin because they believe not in ME; of judgment because the prince of this world is judged.—Now I ask mankind, how the prince of this world can be judged, but from the Creation, his first arts seeking to betray the Woman? But had they fallen freely, and disobeyed my Commands without the subtlety of the serpent, that is called the devil, they could not have cast their blame upon him; then he could not be judged. But I now tell you all, it is from the Creation, his subtlety and arts to betray the Woman, is the way that he must be judged, to be the liar and the transgressor in the beginning, therefore I said, Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out. (See St. John xii. 31.) Now I tell you all men, I was judged by Man, to bear the blame, as Adam cast it on ME at first; so Man’s transgression was laid on ME.

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This was the judgment of Adam in the beginning, to cast the blame on his Maker; and this was the judgment of this world, when I came amongst them; and to their judgment I submitted. So as I bore the blame Man cast on ME, I said the prince of this world should be cast out; for like ME he should be judged. But did I explain my meaning to my disciples in all the words I said to them? Or did they understand my meaning? I tell thee, No. If all things had been understood, then, I tell thee, they could not be fulfilled: for many would have arose to plead the Promises at that time, before the six days were nearly ended; that meaneth, the six thousand years. Then, I tell thee, if men had pleaded the promise, if a woman had claimed the promise, and been deceived, all might fear they should be deceived again, when my appointed time was come to have them plead it, and petition for it; therefore my words were concealed from man, to know the meaning, before they were revealed by ME. Now those that place my Gospel another way, let them answer it;—how the prince of this world is to be judged? what he is to be judged for? and how he is to be cast out? Know I said, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto ME. This the disciples understood not; but supposed it signified what death I should die; but, I tell thee, all men were not drawn after ME, to see ME crucified; neither are all men drawn after ME to this day; but, I now tell thee, the time is at hand, that I will draw all men after ME; or I will destroy them, according to the words of the prophet that I directed thy hand unto. Therefore, I tell thee, all my Peters may weep, that deny thee; because, I tell thee, they deny ME; but they that weep, and are converted, I now tell thee, I shall heal them; but they that go on to darken counsel, and go against my just decrees, will find their houses left desolate. For how can I see the desire of my soul, the travail of my soul and be satisfied, without I see the desire of

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men’s hearts as eager, wishing for Satan’s destruction, as they were wishing for mine? Therefore, I tell thee, it is the SPIRIT of TRUTH, whom the world cannot receive, that is now sent to thee, to teach you all things; and bring all things to your remembrance, from the foundation of the world; and all the words I said to my disciples, that I should be with them to the end, and the Comforter should come to bring all things to their remembrance, and the Spirit of Truth to guide them into all Truth, before I come in might, majesty, and power. Now, my disciples, that were with ME then, did not remain till the end in this world; but I said they should bear witness:—And mark the witness my disciples bore (Acts iii. 20, 21.)—He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Now I tell thee and all men, the restitution of all things cannot come, before the Woman is restored and redeemed from the Fall.—Does not the guilt from the foundation of the world rest still upon her head? But know what is said by the apostle—Be converted that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.—And these are the times of refreshing, to have all your sins blotted out, when I come to blot out the transgression of the Woman, and cast out her Adversary that betrayed her. Here I have shewed thee, from the Scriptures of Truth, what must follow to fulfil them: therefore I said, He that did the will of my FATHER, the same is my Brother, my Sister, and my Mother, and they were blessed that believed my Word; but I tell thee, there is no man can believe my Words, that doth not believe I come in the volume of the Book, as it was written of ME—to do thy Will, O God. Then let all men know what was the WILL of GOD, when HE made Man, and made the Woman for his helpmate,

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and for his good, though Satan thought to frustrate the Will of God, concerning the Woman, when he used his arts to betray her. But know, to confound the arts of Satan, know the Word of God, what he said to the serpent (Genesis iii. 14, 15.)—And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field.—And I will put enmity between thee and the Woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Now, I have told thee, the first was last, and the last was first; my heel was first bruised, from the words of Adam, who said, The Woman, that thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat—and so my heel was bruised by Man; but know, to fulfil my Father’s Words, the enmity must be kindled between the Woman and the serpent, which is the devil, and between his seed and her seed; then now discern all men, I have permitted Satan to come, to tempt her and to try her; and from the disputes between her and Satan, all men may see the enmity is kindled, perfect like the words I spoke: and from the enmity there is in mankind, where Satan hath power to work in the heart, you may see it in his seed; but where the seed is joined with the Woman, their enmity is to bruise the serpent’s head. Here, I tell you all, there is not a word in my Bible, nor a prophecy stands throughout, that you can prove more clearly fulfilled, than I am fulfilling this in her; therefore, I tell thee, O man, whoever is against her must be the serpent’s seed—and have your houses left desolate; for that, I tell you, will be your end; because I have worked the whole round to make the truth plain before you.

"And now I will tell thee this of Carpenter, and the Seven: If they seven set up against thy seven, I now tell thee, Dowland’s end is a type for them all! and let them know, from their own words, they said disobedience was in Dowland, and his death followed;

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and now I tell thee, if they depart from thee, let them know, in disobedience they are gone from thee; then what share or what lot have they got in their Redemption, when I have so plainly shewed thee, and shewed them all, it is from the Promise made to the Woman that your Redemption must come?

"And now I shall answer thy foolish fears—Is this worked round by Satan’s arts, to bring the paper to thee, by a Command, and make thee disobey, because I have said, all must come to thee, all must come through thee, of directions? But now I ask thee, what directions are there on the paper? only to be ordered to bring it to thee; then I tell thee, here are my words verified; because it is brought to thee to have the answer come through thee; and through thee the answer is come. Now I know the weakness of thy foolish heart—because I have told thee Joseph’s was a scheme, worked round by the devil, to betray thee, thou fearest all that is brought unto thee is the same; but now I shall give thee clear directions from the words, that thou mayest not err, nor be deceived. All those that are joined with thee, whatever visitations they profess, or whatever visitations they have, all must come to thee, to know if it be right for them to obey; for it is through thee all must be answered, that concerns thy believers: Here the directions must come, whether to follow or not.

"Now I shall tell thee of Joseph and Carpenter. There was no harm for Carpenter to receive Joseph’s words, and send them to thee; but when I told thee they were not from the Lord, there was Carpenter’s error, to rely upon them; as he had been told before he should follow no directions of Joseph’s, but what I gave to thee. Now I tell thee, Joseph’s directions were not a command to himself, but a command to others, that were fixed through him, and rejected by ME; a command that never came through thee, and I tell thee, never came from ME the Living God, neither did it come from the angels of God.

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"And now I shall answer thee of Tozer. If the Spirit had commanded him to have bought the paper and carried it to Joseph, to say, whatever communication he should give, to be written on that paper, it should be true; then, I tell thee, he would have been deceived, and soon found himself to be deceived; but as he was ordered to bring it to thee, he obeyed my command.—And now I tell thee, the words I have spoken through thee, to be written on his paper, all men shall find them true. So do not fear of being deceived; for I did not tell thee my Spirit should visit none but thee, in any manner, while thou wast living; but from the words, saying all must come to thee, and all must come through thee, of thy believers, that are joined with thee, meaneth, all the visitations, of whatever kind men have, all must be brought to thee, and sanctioned by ME, before they can rely upon them as a visitation from the Lord. Therefore be not alarmed, because I have told thee Satan is working every way to deceive thee; but he cannot deceive thee in any visitations that are sent thee; but I will tell thee the way he might deceive thee: In the manner he worked on Joseph, if thou hadst consented to say it was from the Lord, when I the Lord had never spoken it, neither came such a thought in my mind; this is a way he might deceive thee; but no man can deceive thee, by bringing thee a clean piece of paper, to say the truth should be written thereon; for then it is I must deceive thee, and not the Spirit, if I permit lies to be written thereon. Therefore I tell thee, in this thou hast nothing to fear; but mark my footsteps through the whole, to tell thee that Tozer should come with the rest, to judge between Carpenter, Joseph, and thee; and before the time was made known to Tozer, to have this warning given him, to bring thee a clean sheet of paper, and the truth should be written thereon, for him to be a judge, before he knew he should be called in such a work, to decide and judge of the truth; and

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now I tell thee, on the paper the truth must be written, for him to judge from the Scriptures, from my first visitation to thee, and from the words I now say unto thee.

"No longer let Carpenter dispute, or any man dispute of the likeness; for I now tell thee, as I have told thee before, the words of Joseph, that were sent to Townley, Sharp, and Wilson, never came from the Lord; and if Carpenter still relieth on Joseph’s teaching, when I tell thee it is not from ME, he is no longer joined with thee; for now I have told thee to put it on his paper, that the words that were sent to them from Joseph were not from ME; but the answer that thou sent to him was indited by my Spirit, to lay before him the different conduct of the three. This was done by ME,—and not answered by Carpenter.

"Now I shall tell thee this of Tozer: Let him deeply discern the beginning, and in what manner he brought the paper to thee, saying the truth should be on it; and on the paper he will find the truth of my first visitation, when I warned thee of all nations. Therefore I ordered him to bring the paper, assuring him the truth should be on it; and on the paper he will find the truth. Now if he will be the star, that followed his sister before she came to her house, let him weigh the truth deep, with my first visitation to thee, the Scriptures that I have pointed out, and the words that I said—All must come to thee, and all must come through thee; that meaneth, what they rely upon as visitations from the Lord must be answered through thee; because thou standest the Trial for the whole. And let Tozer discern, if he wish to shine as a star, that appeared to his sister, as a shadow before his coming; let him know, a star is to give light; then let him give light to them that are in darkness: for I now tell thee, in darkness Carpenter is, with all his friends that are around him; I mean the seven pointed out by man. And now mark the mystery of the seven: without the Woman the

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names were given; all was done by the Man alone: and now I tell thee, it is not good for these men to stand alone; for if they aim to stand alone, I now tell thee, the whole will fall, and they will find their standing is not sure; because my Word shall stand for ever. And now discern my Bible through, the prophecies were given to Men; but now it is drawing to the end, I have made the Woman a helpmate for Man, to shew them what the Scriptures mean, that never were understood by man: and this, I tell thee, all men will find true: and every truth Tozer will find on his paper.—And mark the words to him. In the year 1801, after peace was proclaimed—from 235th page, 5th Book—I said the year that began in sorrow would end in joy; and how could it end in joy, without a peace? As there is a peace, let it be a peace; but I may say, what peace, as long as Satan and his witchcrafts are so many, to work in the hearts of men to bring the day of vengeance on their own heads? Now let it be known by all men, my Prophecies are not ended, nay scarcely begun, though all has happened as I foretold. I warn you of dangers that now stand before you; for the time is at hand for the fulfilment of all things!—Who is he that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments? from Bozrah, that speaketh in righteousness, mighty to save all that trust in him?—But of mine enemies I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; for the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come! Then now tremble all ye nations! and be afraid all ye people, that put not your trust in the God of your Salvation, who is mighty to save, and trod the winepress for you, that the day of vengeance might not fall on you, but fall on your betrayer the devil.—But will you say, "We will not bring it on the devil, but on ourselves?" Then now tremble, O man! I will tread down the people in my anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and will bring down their strength to the earth.

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Therefore now awake, O Sion! put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem! FOR THE YEAR OF MY REDEEMED IS COME: for Sion’s sake I will not hold my peace; and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the Righteousness of the Lord goeth forth, or the brightness thereof; For I said, If for a while I deferred it, I would face my foes once more. Now I tell thee from these words, let them be penned on Tozer’s paper; and let him see how true the words followed, when they thought they were in peace and safety. Let him discern what hath followed since to this nation, and the surrounding nations, and let him mark the words—Tremble all ye nations, and be afraid all ye people: And mark the words I said at the Peace—If I deferred it for a while, I would face my foes once more. And now I told thee, by the sword of war, plagues, and famine, I should go on to destroy my enemies. Now let him discern in all the nations, what hath followed, since the words were spoken; then he must see the truth of the one; and from that truth judge the other. For I now tell thee, Tozer shall find there is every word of truth upon his paper. I have ordered thee to take some out of thy Books, and put it in his paper, that he may judge of the past, and what is to come.—Now two things he must discern: what I ordered thee to take out of thy first Book was my visitation to thee in 1792, when there was no appearance of danger, and your land full of peace and plenty; the other spoken at the end of the year, in 1801, after a plentiful harvest, and peace proclaimed in your land; as I told thee in the beginning—The year that began in sorrow should end in joy: and in joy it ended with thousands; but when this joy began in the people, let him mark my words to thee—I warn you of dangers that now stand before you.—

(This letter is continued in PART II.)

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